Poll: A potential switch to third party game software

[Gavjenks]

Hello everyone. Prz, Cisco, and I (Gavjenks) would like your feedback about a potential major software switch (far in the future) for the VoxelBox.

Przerwap wishes to rewrite the entire game, creating a hand-made game client and server software from scratch. The resulting software would have the same look and feel as minecraft does now, but would not truly be "minecraft," since it would not contain any notch code.

The goal is to allow everyone on the VoxelBox (and perhaps the larger community) to have access to the same exact gameplay we have now, but using an engine that is more efficient, faster, less buggy, and which has fewer limitations in the code. This would make the game smoother and faster, and allow things like infinite map height, as many textures as we feel like, ability to control entities and other things that Notch currently has made very difficult to work with, etc.

Other points:
[*]Our existing map would be able to be ported over to this new software in its entirety. It would be compatible enough that nobody would lose any builds.
[*]The new software would have a modding API built into it, for continued development of plugins, etc. Unlike bukkit, Prz would not have to work around obfuscated code and red tape, so the API could be more extensive, and much faster to make and keep up to date.
[*]It is likely that the VoxelBox would only adopt this software with written assurances from Mojang, or with the advice of a qualified lawyer about how much content would need to be changed so as to not open the software to any liability. We would be confident that if we switch over, it will be stable and there to work for us for good.
[*]It would have nothing to do with mojang, and would have no connection to your current game accounts or such. Prz has stated, however, that if there is any charge to use his software, it would be waived for any members of the voxelbox (i.e. voxelboxers play free).
[*]I understand some people may be anxious about installing and running non-company-backed software in general, but security should not be a concern. Prz will probably write everything himself, but would share the source code with at least a few people on the server (potentially many people, but at least a few), to look over and talk about before moving the VoxelBox over.

NOTE: It could be made so that the custom server software would accept connections from either prz's custom client OR Mojang's vanilla client. Thus still allowing unsure new players to check out the server before committing to the software, and still allowing open server days. Please note that this was not mentioned in the OP when the first 30-40 people voted...

Please indicate in the poll how you would react to such software, and/or write any further questions or concerns you might have in this thread. Przerwap wants all of your input before deciding whether this is a good investment of a substantial amount of coding time. Thanks so much!

[Gavjenks]

It is not required of course, but written feedback and details about your thoughts would be very helpful from anybody willing to give them.

[gab0607]

Would this be similar to how the technic pack launcher is technically minecraft but completely separate from the actual minecraft files on one's computer?

[przerwap]

Separate piece of software.

[johnsmom]

Few questions.

1. Would this be released to the public, like our plugins?

2. Would the client/software be able to connect to only TVB?

3. If someone were to take the game that we create, would they be able to set up a server that others can connect to, similar to the current minecraft?

4. How will accounts be handled?

5. Will there will be single player mc?

I do love the idea, but I just need some clarification.

[psanker]

Terrible PR move.

Just sayin'.

Terrible, terrible, terrible.

[peridox]

Good, I absolutely love this idea and actually have a suggestion for it: in-game Ventrilo integration, so I don't have to keep exiting out of minecraft to switch channels / text-chat, whatever?

[Killjaden]

Terrible PR move.

Just sayin'.

Terrible, terrible, terrible.

"Just sayin'" is a terrible way t o explain your argument. I'd like to hear why you don't like this as you're one of our plugineers.

As for me, I'd have to hear more about it and talk to some other people before really deciding if I like this or not as it has some really nice positives but some bad negatives as well.

[psanker]

you're one of our plugineers.

I am not. Cisco has just not removed that badge from my name. Don't ask why; much political stuff that you don't want to know.

If you want me to go into detail, here goes:

The Bukkit community (or those who peruse Minecraft servers) does NOT want to download extra software. If you need proof, simply look through the comments on the VoxelSniper page regarding VoxelUpdate. People just want to visit, check something out, and move on. If this new "idea" is implemented, you would see a drastic decrease in the community base because of the ambivalence in downloading an extra piece of software. It's like the Yahoo News app on Facebook which actually funnels more traffic to Google than Yahoo. The implementation of the "idea" will also effectively destroy the potential for open server days because of the inherent "closed-door" policy of using a 3rd-party software that only 1 out of 30.000 servers worldwide use.

Another point: to most of the greater community as a whole, The Voxel Box is not special. Only a select few appreciate TVB's work enough to buy into this new idea; in fact, most of the select few are already part of TVB, with the increase of the greylist acceptance rate. Ergo, restricting the user base even further by throwing up a download barrier will result in even more ambivalence and enmity toward The Voxel Box, something TVB does not need.

This is why this is a terrible PR move. Do not, from the bottom of my heart, do this. Just don't.

[Gavjenks]

That is a decent argument psanker, but just to play devil's advocate: Anybody visitng on open server days already has to download a texture pack at the very least, and generally (if they want to actually tag along with tour groups, etc.) zombe as well, or the VB modpack entirely.

So to even view our work right now, they have to download something. Possibly several somethings. Why would it be more of a barrier to download thing #1 versus thing #2? A client would be on the order of a few megabytes at most, and could be set up to have absolutely no set up time (there could be a system for temporary usernames so that you don't even need to so much as register one of those. Just plug and play instantly).

[Gavjenks]

Also, most of the people who apply to our graylist do so without thinking or worrying about what software they might need to play.

We could actually mitigate a lot of the PR problem by making graylist even harder than it is now, and making whitelist easier.

Everything I know about the social side of my own area of specialty (psychology) suggests this would work pretty well. The average person applying would have to go through a series of 2 or 3 rounds of (more intense than now) prescreen interviews. Those who pass would only then need to really worry about getting the software, and by that point, they have already committed so much time and effort into the application process, that they are unwilling to give up due to a disagreement about the software. To do so would be basically admitting to themselves that they are idiots, for having wasted all that time without thinking ahead very far.

At the same time, people who put in a lot of application effort would think of themselves as Voxelboxers already, more so the more effort they put in. To give up after being accepted, for any reason, would run counter to their now strong image of themselves as a member of the community. This creates a thing called cognitive dissonance, which is very uncomfortable and is something people try very hard to avoid. In this case, avoiding it would most easily be achieved by simply downloading the software.

Yes, numbers of new guests would drop, it is a negative point. But if we do it correctly, they would probably not drop by anywhere near as much as you are thinking.

Although actually, maybe they wouldn't even drop. If the new software accomplishes its goal and really is THAT much faster and smoother, then we would attract players who normally wouldnt have a good enough computer to play seriously. And if we have, for instance, infinite world height, we would attract gifted creative builders for that reason, too. Our youtube videos would dramatically showcase this sort of thing, and the people attracted from those unique features may very well even outnumber the ones lost. It is possible that applications would rise, maybe.

[Gavjenks]

Sorry, triple post....


New possible idea:
Przerwap makes it so that we run a custom server program, and also makes available a custom client, BUT the server is set up so that it would be able to accept connections from either vanilla MC clients or the custom clients.

Thus, anybody could log on from either. It's just that if you use the custom client, it will be way faster, nicer, have fancy dynamic shadows maybe, chunks render better, etc. etc.

That would solve all of your concerns psanker, yes? At the cost of no infinite worldheight (meh, whatever)

[Jinzha]

I'm going to have to agree with Psanker here, I think it'd really make us even more seperated from the rest of the Minecraft community, which we already are quite a bit. I have no idea how to explain why I wouldn't want this, it might just be that I am afraid of change, or afraid of too much change or even afraid of the people being afraid of change. Another issue is that too me, it wouldn't feel like playing Minecraft anymore, which is a feel I'd like to keep.

On the other hand, the idea itself is rather good. The possiblities are near endless. A few question though:
How will this work when MC updates?
Can other people make plugins for our software or can we even use 3rd party mods/plugins?

[Gavjenks]

How will this work when MC updates?

under the original idea, it would be completely unaffected. Under the "vanilla clients can still connect" version, there may have to be some slight updates to make it compatible again after MC updates, but likely not very extensive ones.

Can other people make plugins for our software or can we even use 3rd party mods/plugins?

We would not be able to use 3rd party plugins. People, including us and others, could make plugins for this software, though. Prz would build in an API (similar to bukkit, but native to the software) for it. Existing plugins could likely be switched over without too much terrible difficulty, if one has access to the source code.

[Vashal]

My only confusion is that this seems like a ton of work, mainly for prz, but really for everyone...but for what? Are we still that limited once the new api thing hits? So limited that we have to make another minecraft entirely to suit a few needs? I just feel like...if we are going this route anyway, and you want to put in this time to remake minecraft in new code, why not just make a new game...should be just as difficult/easy. I feel in my opinion, that this is an unnecessary move for us, and i do agree with psanker that it wouldn't help pr. I know personally, that if i had to download basically a new game in order to play on a server....that'd be a bit much. anyway..just my quickly drafted two cents.

[Jinzha]

Vashal put the finger on the issue I could find words for. It's a bit unnecessary, with the new API we'll be able to create endless amounts of blocks, won't this be an unnecessary amount of work?

[BlockCat]

Vashal put the finger on the issue I could find words for. It's a bit unnecessary, with the new API we'll be able to create endless amounts of blocks, won't this be an unnecessary amount of work?

And we can always ask EvilSeph to add little things, isn't he admin on this server?

[Molybdenum42]

Vashal put the finger on the issue I could find words for. It's a bit unnecessary, with the new API we'll be able to create endless amounts of blocks, won't this be an unnecessary amount of work?

And we can always ask EvilSeph to add little things, isn't he admin on this server?

That doesn't really work that way.

Anyways, personally, I would use it - but I doubt everyone would. This issue has been mentioned before, and even though Gav's argument does make a lot of sense, I would love to hear some more info on this - it could potentially serve as a really powerful community builder.

[Killjaden]

Sorry, triple post....


New possible idea:
Przerwap makes it so that we run a custom server program, and also makes available a custom client, BUT the server is set up so that it would be able to accept connections from either vanilla MC clients or the custom clients.

Thus, anybody could log on from either. It's just that if you use the custom client, it will be way faster, nicer, have fancy dynamic shadows maybe, chunks render better, etc. etc.

That would solve all of your concerns psanker, yes? At the cost of no infinite worldheight (meh, whatever)

If peter can make this work then I'm totally game. We can get members and whoever wants better performance use the custom client and everyone else can use the regular mc client.

[Mexxy]

One concern would be; would it be worth coding an entire new game with the Modding API patch on the horizon? Do we know a release date for that? (Evilseph?). Would it offer some relief to plugineers instead of this new software?

I don't think it will deter any people away from applying to The Voxel Box. As Gav said, you already have to download the Modpack. It's not like you can connect straightforward with your normal Minecraft client because you have to get greylisted first, go on the wiki, submit an app. The Minecraft client is the last thing you need to get on The Voxel Box.

In terms of performance, obviously the new client will offer what we need, and I'm super hyped about that. It further increases our member's initiative to start projects, which I think is a big thing on The Voxel Box. Although 256 I plenty high for the majority of players, and working on a project or adventure map in that space is totally doable and by little to no means restrictive, increasing the barrier by which the Minecraft game and client limit players would further increase their incentive to think of, create and work on large scale projects, for which The Voxel Box is widely known for (part of our beautiful artwork (building) and coding).

From a community perspective, I don't necessarily think we've been drifting away from the general Minecraft community. From my perspective, many views and interest is found in and around the large YouTube directors such as The Yogscast, CaptainSparklez, FyreUK, BeBopVox, InTheLittleWood, SethBling, Disco etc.. It would be very good research to obtain about the number of people who actively communicate and browse the official Minecraft Forums on a daily basis, compared to watching Minecraft YouTube videos. By my guess, it is far smaller than the number of views some Minecraft YouTube videos get (ahem, CptnSpklez getting 500k+ views on a Minecraft Let's Play in less than 3 days?). If we were to move to this new software, coupled with the fact that I think many aspiring and admiring players would not be bothered having to download it, the general Minecraft audience that we have would not be very much bothered by the move, and that the video content they watch would stay the same (until we start introducing super cool things to this new piece of software).

Additionally, adventure maps, another large part of the community in which we are now situated with DSTC; audience members, being of around 200k (downloads as of 13-04-12) + a portion of the views on the YouTube adventure map videos, would not be deterred by the fact they would have to download a new client, as they effectively have to anyway with DSTC. With the added promise of "this new client will make your game run faster and be a much more enjoyable experience", what do they have to complain about? It's getting onto game design and mechanics here; people download new games every day just to try them out; I think this is where adventure maps are heading; the Modding API will contribute to the ease of access of adventure maps via the normal client, but ultimately I think players will still have to download addons or install Modpacks to play the BEST adventure maps.

Finally, I think this step would be a major point in the history of The Voxel Box's lifetime (therefore talking to Ridge is a given); Brent wants us to move forward from Minecraft in the future and not die out with the game's ultimate demise. Effectively 'creating a game', if word was received correctly from the gaming community, largely the Minecraft community, and with suitable relations with Mojang, would potentially put The Voxel Box on the verge of becoming a game studio.

[doublenum]

What about legal issues?

I have no idea how you are going to do account log-ins, but if you remove the premium, you are in turn making an illegal free version of minecraft, right? I'm pretty sure the same issue persists if you use Mojang's database of accounts. :/

[Billyyjoee]

Psanker says;
I am not. Cisco has just not removed that badge from my name. Don't ask why; much political stuff that you don't want to know.

http://www.voxelwiki.com/minecraft/Cate ... Plugineers . You are not a plugin developer for The Voxel Box unless you are specifically written on that page, amirite? You have no badge, and if you did, it needs to be put on the wiki as Psanker

To be honest, I think that this idea is great. What about the tekkit launcher? Thousands of people have downloaded that, because it's a good idea. That's a custom client, and requires custom server changes, and people still do it. I don't know how the community would see this project, but in terms of the server, I see it as a huge leap. We'd be able to do essentially anything that we've always wanted, the only limit would be our imagination. The only issue I see with this, is how we are going to keep updated with this. Essentially, creating this whole new minecraft WOULD remove the need for the modpack, a thing which so many people download on a regular basis. If we were to create this whole new game, would we still keep it updated? I know the idea of The Voxel Box is to be seperate from other minecraft servers, but I do agree we should still have that little connection. The server itself has had so many changes in the past couple of months, and changes are still coming. Plugins going public, was a really bad idea. It was probably a good idea on paper, but it somewhat lowered the expectations of the server, as there was no plugin development AT ALL whilst this happened. It almost seems like the server had died, and the public plugins was a desperate push to revive it. Ridgedog is soon not going to be able to host the server by himself, as he is going to be moving to the UK within the next couple of months. This is going to add a little stress to the server, as we are going to have to deal with the IP change, and depending on where the player lives, they could receive lag because the server is even further away from them.

I don't know, I love the idea for this, and I do not think it was bad PR at all. I just think this project should be created slowly, so that people can slowly adjust to it. The Voxel Box is reliant on its players, and putting stress on them WILL make them leave. We are fortunate that the server has grown this much, and every player should have their own opinion heard before any development is made on this. But for now, thumbs up!

[psanker]

@People saying people get Modpack: Yes, only if they are REALLY interested.

As for open server days, there are STILL people who connect to TVB with the default pack. That's just a measure of how lazy people are. Moreover, saying "well, people are stupid" does not help your point because that just pushes people away. Making a 3rd party client that maybe could improve performance is just too much of a risk. People don't bend to TVB's will. TVB's aura only goes so far, and the extent of the aura does not justify the use of 3rd party software.

On a side note, this is practically pointless with the Modding API in the near future. Who knows what technological advances are coming with these new updates.

This is still a VERY bad idea. I understand the wish to improve performance, but this is not the right approach. This is EXACTLY like that CanaryMod server. You are guaranteed to be stuck in the past. Remember: there is a whole TEAM of PROFESSIONAL coders at Mojang, but there is only ONE (or two or three) coders here that vary on experience in Java. Writing a whole new client REQUIRES VAST EXTENTS of knowledge in Java. There is no room for half-assed code in games. You may say "Notchcode" is half-assed, but really it is not. It's just a not-so-efficient approach to writing GAMES in Java, which on its own is a BAD IDEA.

[przerwap]

@People saying people get Modpack: Yes, only if they are REALLY interested.

As for open server days, there are STILL people who connect to TVB with the default pack. That's just a measure of how lazy people are. Making a 3rd party client that maybe could improve performance is just too much of a risk. People don't bend to TVB's will. TVB's aura only goes so far, and the extent of the aura does not justify the use of 3rd party software.

On a side note, this is practically pointless with the Modding API in the near future. Who knows what technological advances are coming with these new updates.

This is still a VERY bad idea. I understand the wish to improve performance, but this is not the right approach. This is EXACTLY like that CanaryMod server. You are guaranteed to be stuck in the past. Remember: there is a whole TEAM of PROFESSIONAL coders at Mojang, but there is only ONE (or two or three) coders here that vary on experience in Java. Writing a whole new client REQUIRES VAST EXTENTS of knowledge in Java. There is no room for half-assed code in games. You may say "Notchcode" is half-assed, but really it is not. It's just a not-so-efficient approach to writing GAMES in Java, which on its own is a BAD IDEA.

Not to burst your bubble here, but I would not write a game in Java.

[psanker]

Not to burst your bubble here, but I would not write a game in Java.

Neither would I or 99% of the world. Hence, Windows games are mostly C-based, Mac games are C-based, iOS is C-based, PlayStation is C-based, Wii is C-based, Xbox is C-based ...

[thedeadlybutter]

This is my take on this entire thing,

Pros;
First off, Java sucks monkey balls. Coding a new client that runs in a more efficient language will literally show a increase in performance. Those guys who have a 2Gb's of ram in their computer could play on render distance far.

With built in mod support, API, at the start, gives so much potential. People in vent are complaining about the mods in minecraft won't work (that exist already). While yes this is true, keep in mind the majority of the mods made are not meant for multiplayer. And even less of the ones that are can benefit you without becoming a mod required server. So how much are you really missing out on? The mods that are left could always be remade if people want them, but how many mods do you actually install over the modpack except for mods like Shaders, and other rendering plugins...?

It's now our game. Everyone is whining about minecraft updates. Yes, oh well we can't use derp minecraft code to update our game, doesn't suck. Why? Because, Mojang will be more focused on expanding the API than anything, don't expect new content from anything other than 3Rd party developers. Any game mechanic updates could be done on the fly the minute the snapshot is released. Besides, we change how much of the game mechanics, change how many blocks, and how much do we make this game our own? With this, we make our own updates, that are better for us =D

Huge step for our server. By simply advertising we run on full custom code from server to client, is a big attraction. If the server itself runs on a new and better language, that just put us at top of every other public server server for the simple reason, our performance, game play, and builds top everything there is. Now some are saying "buut, i need to get a new game!". 1. Thats life, do you really not have a minute to download something better? 2. If you advertise WHY this client is fliipin awesome, and show WHY it benefits you, people will download it more than willingly.

Cons:

Legal Issues- I know we addressed this, but Notch does not want its game re-made to the extent we are, and give it out for free. The best solution for this is to use the mineraft login system along with maybe a custom one for VB members only. If we had players who could beat Notch & Jeb at Quake, you wouldn't see this issue.



Questions I can answer:

Are we still that limited once the new api thing hits? So limited that we have to make another minecraft entirely to suit a few needs?

While I cannot give you a confirmation on this, I can promise you half the things you will imagine about, will never be possible with the vanilla mod API.

Vashal put the finger on the issue I could find words for. It's a bit unnecessary, with the new API we'll be able to create endless amounts of blocks, won't this be an unnecessary amount of work?

Were limited to 4000 blocks in minecaft at this moment, with ours than its unlimited. But, even if the API gives us this ability, do you think that is ALL we wanted to do with it? Make blocks and items?!?!?!?! And half the stuff we would want to make would take forever TO make because we would need to work around the API due to features not being there.

And we can always ask EvilSeph to add little things, isn't he admin on this server?

Yeah, uh huh, that would totally work. *facepalm*

One concern would be; would it be worth coding an entire new game with the Modding API patch on the horizon? Do we know a release date for that?

Release date is unknown, nobody, including Evilseph can tell you when they will finish coding it. Why? It depends on when it gets done, they have all documentation/support ready, the client is ready, and its stable enough.

Would it offer some relief to plugineers instead of this new software?

The API is different than bukkit, so we would have to learn its JavaDocs as well. Not much of an issue there, the only issue is that while I know a *alright* amount of C++, and obviously Prz knows many languages, I'm not sure how many plugineers are willing to learn a new one, or what languages some know*. It shouldn't be a problem, because there is no downfall to learning a new language.

[psanker]

Now some are saying "buut, i need to get a new game!". 1. Thats life, do you really not have a minute to download something better? 2. If you advertise WHY this client is fliipin awesome, and show WHY it benefits you, people will download it more than willingly.

Wrong. See my posts above. Especially your argument #1. Like I said, The Voxel Box does not have the biggest aura; in fact, it is rather disapproved of in the Bukkit community, the community that WOULD make use of the upcoming API.

[Killjaden]

Sorry, triple post....


New possible idea:
Przerwap makes it so that we run a custom server program, and also makes available a custom client, BUT the server is set up so that it would be able to accept connections from either vanilla MC clients or the custom clients.

Thus, anybody could log on from either. It's just that if you use the custom client, it will be way faster, nicer, have fancy dynamic shadows maybe, chunks render better, etc. etc.

That would solve all of your concerns psanker, yes? At the cost of no infinite worldheight (meh, whatever)

Can you edit your main post Gav and put this in there? I think the ability to connect with vanilla mc would be really important if this were to happen.

[ducktaperules]

I think the ability to connect with vanilla mc would be really important if this were to happen.

I agree. I think that you would need to maintain support for players with the default client.

the client should be like the mod-pack where its not required however it makes your game experience better. players that frequently use TVB would soon realise that performance with the custom client is much better and swap over. however newer players can still come visit without installing a full client, just to log onto one server.

that being said I think that having a custom client would be awesome and I fully support the development.

At the cost of no infinite worldheight

who relay needs infinite world height anyway? hardly anyone uses the current world height. and it will be good to add blocks but if we had to many it kind of spoils the fun of minecraft.

[Molybdenum42]

Another question - just how far would you mimic Minecraft? Just far enough that we could connect to a server with appropriate software and with regular MC worlds, or would we be able to play regular Survival? Would there be elements that we do not use (mobs especially)? How would world generation be handled - if at all?

Furthermore, I'd be terribly interested in a few clues about what you are planning with such a client. How would world rendering be handled? In chunks, like usual, or in 16^3 cubes? Something else entirely? What about Biomes, Lighting, Liquids? Or is it just plain too early to be asking this kind of question?

[thedeadlybutter]

Now some are saying "buut, i need to get a new game!". 1. Thats life, do you really not have a minute to download something better? 2. If you advertise WHY this client is fliipin awesome, and show WHY it benefits you, people will download it more than willingly.

Wrong. See my posts above. Especially your argument #1. Like I said, The Voxel Box does not have the biggest aura; in fact, it is rather disapproved of in the Bukkit community, the community that WOULD make use of the upcoming API.

Oh well than. If 3rd people don't download the client (ASSUMING, we even make it Public), It doesn't hurt us. I could care less what is "Disapporved" by the bukkit community, because were not the bukkit community, were TheVoxelBox, and we do things differently here.

[przerwap]

Another question - just how far would you mimic Minecraft? Just far enough that we could connect to a server with appropriate software and with regular MC worlds, or would we be able to play regular Survival? Would there be elements that we do not use (mobs especially)? How would world generation be handled - if at all?

Furthermore, I'd be terribly interested in a few clues about what you are planning with such a client. How would world rendering be handled? In chunks, like usual, or in 16^3 cubes? Something else entirely? What about Biomes, Lighting, Liquids? Or is it just plain too early to be asking this kind of question?

If it's just a custom client than it would be simply Multiplayer-Only
In the situation of a custom Client all the server related features (What the server tells the client to display) could be Enabled/Disabled from an options menu. Those features may include simple things like 'render entities' or 'display clouds' or could be complex as per 'shadow detail' 'water reflection detail' etc.

[psanker]

Now some are saying "buut, i need to get a new game!". 1. Thats life, do you really not have a minute to download something better? 2. If you advertise WHY this client is fliipin awesome, and show WHY it benefits you, people will download it more than willingly.

Wrong. See my posts above. Especially your argument #1. Like I said, The Voxel Box does not have the biggest aura; in fact, it is rather disapproved of in the Bukkit community, the community that WOULD make use of the upcoming API.

Oh well than. If 3rd people don't download the client (ASSUMING, we even make it Public), It doesn't hurt us. I could care less what is "Disapporved" by the bukkit community, because were not the bukkit community, were TheVoxelBox, and we do things differently here.

You don't get it. The server user base would NOT expand because of the isolationist attitude the potential 3rd-party client inherently presents. The Voxel Box would dwindle over time to nothing.

[Killjaden]

You don't get it. The server user base would NOT expand because of the isolationist attitude the potential 3rd-party client inherently presents. The Voxel Box would dwindle over time to nothing.

IF people can connect with vanilla minecraft then this custom client with be exactly like downloading the modpack, which every member/guest does anyways.

[thedeadlybutter]

You don't get it. The server user base would NOT expand because of the isolationist attitude the potential 3rd-party client inherently presents. The Voxel Box would dwindle over time to nothing.

Okay, show me these bukkit standards/Forum Threads/Anything that says what your claiming. Otherwise, right now this is just asking for an argument to start, an argument we don't need since I think we've made it clear we want vanilla minecraft clients to be able to connect

[psanker]

The Bukkit community (or those who peruse Minecraft servers) does NOT want to download extra software. If you need proof, simply look through the comments on the VoxelSniper page regarding VoxelUpdate. People just want to visit, check something out, and move on. If this new "idea" is implemented, you would see a drastic decrease in the community base because of the ambivalence in downloading an extra piece of software. It's like the Yahoo News app on Facebook which actually funnels more traffic to Google than Yahoo. The implementation of the "idea" will also effectively destroy the potential for open server days because of the inherent "closed-door" policy of using a 3rd-party software that only 1 out of 30.000 servers worldwide use.

[Jinzha]

Could someone inform me a little more on the possiblities of a third party software? So far I've heard a possible performance increase and unlimited world height(completely unnecessary tbh). What else will this allow that we can't do with the Modding API? I can't really see the necessity of this, even though the idea is cool.