VoxelModPack time changing mod

[Friedebarth]

Hello all. If I remember correctly (haven't played with it in a long time), there is a mod in the VoxelModPack that allows you to change the time of day with the plus/minus keys on your numpad. I looked at the wiki page for the ModPack, but I couldn't figure out which of the included mods was responsible for this function. Does anyone know?

[gab0607]

That is a part of zombes mod pack. to be specific, the sun mod. zombes was removed from the voxelmod pack for some reason and replaced solely with voxelflight

[coolpilot]

The simple solution to this problem is to install the modpack, but not VoxelFlight. Then, download & install zombe's mods off of the MCForums. Viola!
It's what I did, since I hate the VoxelFlight, and I ain't about to give up my old friend zombe.

[Deamon5550]

This won't work in future version of the modpack, also an alternate time changing mod is already in the works.

[coolpilot]

This won't work in future version of the modpack

What, being able to not install VoxelFlight won't work in the future? You can just take that out of the files in the install folder. If you mean that it's going to be integrated into other neccisary programs (like the the Improved Chat) and will install with those whether you like it or not, than that's completely sucky. I have and will always use zombe for sun mod, flight, x-ray, build mode (off the VB), half/full-bright, light level (surprisingly useful), and all the other features it has. It works great, has so many different uses, and really doesn't need replacement in my opinion. I'm not switching to the Voxel-Version in this case, not now or ever (unless zombe stops getting updated, of course... then I obviously have no alternative).

Unless you were talking about something else, in which case, ignore my rant.

[Vashal]

I think he means zombes will interfere with something, cause i heard that somewhere else. I may be wrong though.

[gab0607]

yeah unless its absolutely necessary that zombes gets removed from the pack. i do not see why this change was made. nobody was complaining about zombes, infact people are complaining that its gone now. and if something isnt broke and does its job and about 20 others perfectly fine why replace it with something that only does 1 or 2 of those 20 jobs.
this switch just didnt make much sense to me, there were no surveys or anything asking the us the members if we had any issues with zombes or if would would want a change of pace. when we get surveys for minor things like the organization of the wiki or voting threads for the theme of the forums i would think that major changes like removing zombes should atleast involve some feedback from the members of the server. cause if this post change negative feedback is anything to go off of, membership would have said not to change anything unless it is absolutely needed, which doesnt seem to be the case.
Most of teh mods in the modpack were made by members of teh community/ affiliates of the vb, if one of those mods were conflicting with zombes those mods should have been edited to compensate and zombes shouldnt have moved. it should have remained a permanent part of the modpack unless he stops updating it.
You know its bad when some admins do not approve of the changes are not enjoying using it.
So please re-add zombes to the pack and rid it of voxelflight or at the very least have both in there and let the player decide which they would like to utilize,

[thedeadlybutter]

yeah unless its absolutely necessary that zombes gets removed from the pack. i do not see why this change was made. nobody was complaining about zombes, infact people are complaining that its gone now. and if something isnt broke and does its job and about 20 others perfectly fine why replace it with something that only does 1 or 2 of those 20 jobs.
this switch just didnt make much sense to me, there were no surveys or anything asking the us the members if we had any issues with zombes or if would would want a change of pace. when we get surveys for minor things like the organization of the wiki or voting threads for the theme of the forums i would think that major changes like removing zombes should atleast involve some feedback from the members of the server. cause if this post change negative feedback is anything to go off of, membership would have said not to change anything unless it is absolutely needed, which doesnt seem to be the case.
Most of teh mods in the modpack were made by members of teh community/ affiliates of the vb, if one of those mods were conflicting with zombes those mods should have been edited to compensate and zombes shouldnt have moved. it should have remained a permanent part of the modpack unless he stops updating it.
You know its bad when some admins do not approve of the changes are not enjoying using it.
So please re-add zombes to the pack and rid it of voxelflight or at the very least have both in there and let the player decide which they would like to utilize,

Just to let you & everyone know, Zombe wasn't removed for the hell of it. It conflicts with a lot of stuff since it edits notch class files instead of making new files entirely. They are already making the new flight work like zombe so calm your butts, I don't see you people coding a modpack used by 100's of people.....

[gab0607]

yeah unless its absolutely necessary that zombes gets removed from the pack. i do not see why this change was made. nobody was complaining about zombes, infact people are complaining that its gone now. and if something isnt broke and does its job and about 20 others perfectly fine why replace it with something that only does 1 or 2 of those 20 jobs.
this switch just didnt make much sense to me, there were no surveys or anything asking the us the members if we had any issues with zombes or if would would want a change of pace. when we get surveys for minor things like the organization of the wiki or voting threads for the theme of the forums i would think that major changes like removing zombes should atleast involve some feedback from the members of the server. cause if this post change negative feedback is anything to go off of, membership would have said not to change anything unless it is absolutely needed, which doesnt seem to be the case.
Most of teh mods in the modpack were made by members of teh community/ affiliates of the vb, if one of those mods were conflicting with zombes those mods should have been edited to compensate and zombes shouldnt have moved. it should have remained a permanent part of the modpack unless he stops updating it.
You know its bad when some admins do not approve of the changes are not enjoying using it.
So please re-add zombes to the pack and rid it of voxelflight or at the very least have both in there and let the player decide which they would like to utilize,

Just to let you & everyone know, Zombe wasn't removed for the hell of it. It conflicts with a lot of stuff since it edits notch class files instead of making new files entirely. They are already making the new flight work like zombe so calm your butts, I don't see you people coding a modpack used by 100's of people.....

I dont get that, we've had the modpack for how long now? 4-5 months and all of a sudden we have conflicting mods? how come there were no tales of conflicting mods before and in the newest version there are

[Mumfrey]

Just to clarify, we don't have conflicting mods, that's kind of the point. But the mod landscape is complex and having your head crammed up your arse as a mod developer is not a defensible position, especially when you're including mods in a mod pack which is used by thousands of people (yes, thousands, not hundreds). Since a stable API has still not materialised in Mojang's corner, the best (or at least most pervasive) solution at the current time is ModLoader. ModLoader minimises the chances of mod conflicts by overriding the Notchian base classes so that mods need not do so themselves, some of the essentials mods previously edited base classes but we (especially Chrismack and xTiming) have spent a lot of time working to slowly but surely reduce this. This works in multiple ways of good, specifically making it easier and faster to update mods when a new version comes out (my own Macros mod is 100% base clean and I released my 1.2.3 version yesterday!) but also reducing the chance of conflics when people install other mods.

The ModPack is used by many as base, a way of getting the "essential" mods in place on their installation before they install other things of their choosing, and so it's irresponsible and rather closed minded to think that "well it works as a mod pack, why change it? So what if it breaks other mods, I'm alright and don't care about anyone else". This means that pushing the Modpack to be as base clean as possible is a very good thing for everyone involved, and will make for a better experience for everyone (including us as developers, you as users, and the slew of users outside the voxelverse who leverage the mod pack to access useful SMP mods for use elsewhere) both now and down the line.

"Out of the box", the zombe's functionality that is used is fly mod (essential for playing on TVB) and sun mod (not essential but bloody useful). Unfortunately, zombe's mod pack alters an imperial arse-load of base classes to achieve this, base classes which conflict with many other mods and Tanzanite makes it clear that he really doesn't care. So, to achieve fly and sun (which are pretty simple functions) it's just overkill, and having it in a modpack primarily concerned with making things easy for end users just doesn't make sense.

Now ok, dropping it from the modpack when VoxelFlight wasn't ready was (with hindsight) not a great move, and huge work is being undertaken by the mod team to replace the lost functionality and also provide a whole lot more, but the result will be base clean. This means, if you want zombe's for the other features, you can install it and hang the consequences, but "out of the box" the modpack will be a good base for all manner of other third-party mods without the looming threat of conflicts bleeding out of every orifice.

MehStrongBadMeh is working tirelessly to improve the installer, and it's likely going forward that the default option will be clean and you will have the ability to install potentially conflict-heavy mods (such as zombe's) as an option when installing, but the important point is this won't be imposed on the large number of people who just want a simple, compatible fly and sun mod capability. I also rather think that the replacement for VoxelFlight that is currently in development will blow most of your minds, or at least it should.

Please stop behaving like the removal of Zombe's was some kind of personal affront, I know that Strongbad and all of us who work on the mod pack put a stupid amount of time, effort and thought into the whole process and to suggest otherwise is frankly quite hurtful. I think with the current landscape as it is, developers of popular mods and modpacks actually have a duty to provide as much compatibility as humanly possible, to behave otherwise is just selfish and closed minded. Continuing to include zombe's mods, though it may not be apparent to you, is simply not reconcilable against this, and whilst it was perhaps premature, it's the correct decision.

This doesn't mean that you won't, with future versions, be able to install zombe's or even (as I mentioned above) possibly have it included but disabled by default. It just means that better things are afoot which will benefit everyone.

[Friedebarth]

Woah, I didn't want to spark a discussion, I literally just wanted to know what mod did that sun thing. That question's been answered now, so thanks for that

[MehStrongBadMeh]

A sun control mod will be added to the next ModPack update. Also, a better flying mod will replace VoxelFlight.

[Gavjenks]

@ mumfrey and MSBM,

I understand your reasoning, but I don't think it is correct, given that this is a VoxelBox modpack, with a responsibility first and foremost to the VoxelBox. Also, if this is going to be made mandatory, there needs to be vastly more transparency ahead of time amongst all the admins.

In more detail:

1) We are moving toward a required modpack in the future. If and when that happens, we can no longer be kept in the dark about what is going to happen with this modpack. Nobody--at least not staff--should be surprised about anything that happens with a modpack update. A given change may be for the best, or it may not be, but if our entire server is going to be unplayable without and thus entirely dependent on a modpack, we all need to be kept very up to date and onboard, and have a chance to voice opinions about these things before they happen. Is that a pain in the ass? Yes, but too bad, that's how it works with anything else we do that is critical to the server (e.g. major changes to the sniper framework have involved discussion amongst all of the major sniper developers as well as public surveys and discussions).

2) This is a VoxelBox modpack. Keyword "VoxelBox." If people on other servers want to use it, that's nice, but we should make exactly zero accommodations for those people if the accommodations inconvenience the VoxelBox in any way. We don't get paid for these services. Nobody seems to give us link traffic for these services... so there is no benefit to use to bend over backward for the needs of other servers. Nothing that is going to be branded "VoxelBox" or much more importantly, anything that is going to be mandatory for playing on the VoxelBox, should include any compromises from whatever is best suited for our needs.

In short: No changes should be made to a modpack, especially a mandatory one, unless they keep things completely neutrally beneficial for the VoxelBox OR they improve things for the VoxelBox.

3) Judging from the comments above in this thread, it seems that zombe was not in fact conflicting with any of the stuff the VoxelBox uses. (Based on the fact that people are able to remove VoxelFlight and install zombe with no problems, and from MSBM's post). I can't be 100% sure, but this would appear to therefore be an example of hurting the VoxelBox in exchange for helping the outside community. In my opinion, that is completely unacceptable as a change to a VoxelBox modpack, under any circumstances, and doubly or triply so if and when this thing becomes mandatory.

It is a simple fact that zombe was more useful to the VoxelBox than VoxelFlight is.
* It was a much better flymod than VoxelFlight (not just gliding, but also being able to change speed in game, etc.)
* It had sunmod, the lack of which severely impairs the pleasantness of working on the server. Yes, I know you plan on replacing it, but there never should have been a lull in between, and unless the replacement allows you to change controls from in game and to customize the size of the time steps for each sun shift, etc. etc., it is still a step down.
* It had like 15 other mods that people use all the time. In my case, I happen to rely on X-ray mod as much or more than I rely on sunmod and flymod. It makes guest reviews about 4x faster, and allows a number of my building projects to be completed about 2-3x faster than they would be otherwise (e.g. building inside a volcano shaped cave... the only other way to know how far it is until you will hit air is to use the eminently inefficient scanner brush). So even if you replace fly and sunmod, this is still a step down for the VoxelBox.

Unless there is something concrete and immediately available in the modpack that OFFSETS this negative step down in usefulness, then no change should be made. In other words, even if you had made an equally useful flymod and an equally useful sunmod, it still should not have been switched yet, unless you were also finished with and ready to implement some other mod, which was previously impossible due to zombe conflicts, and which outweighed the loss of cheatmod and other parts of zombe in usefulness for the VoxelBox.

tl;dr:

it's just overkill, and having it in a modpack primarily concerned with making things easy for end users just doesn't make sense.

Our end users who matter are the players of the VoxelBox, not people on other servers we don't know who don't pay us. When you make that substitution, the logic in this quote doesn't work anymore, which pretty much summarizes what I'm trying to point out here.

[Gavjenks]

Graphical version of above argument:

[Mumfrey]

Completely agree, and to be clear, I'm just a lowly developer on the team and had no sway in the decision for or against Zombe's, I was just trying to provide some context for the posters above who seemed to think it was a totally illogical move. I don't think it was an illogical move for all the reasons I posted, but I completely agree it was a premature move for all the reasons that you posted, and as I said you're right on the money.

To your points,

1) I have no idea about the correspondence with admins so can't comment. To be honest I'm not even sure who the admins are apart from Ridgedog and Plusnine but I mainly just keep my coding hat on and churn out low-grade crap that everyone hates.

2) Absolutely, with the addendum that it should be considered that a modpack which does benefit and achieve acceptance within the wider community does a lot of good work toward establishing the VoxelBox as a community leader, willing to share their good work with others. And also acts as a superb public awareness campaign with users maybe only becoming aware of the VoxelBox's extistence because of the high penetration of the modpack and wide acceptance amongst a large player base. I personally believe it's possible to accomodate both, and yes it shouldn't negatively (and in the best instance should positively) impact the VoxelBox userbase but this has already been covered, especially with the rather excellent graphic you posted above.

3) Yes, precisely.

My tl;dr:

I was just posting my thoughts before. Please don't be upset, everyone involved is only human.

[Gavjenks]

Oh yeah man no problem. I'm not angry at all, just concerned and opinionated. Something about how I write always makes people think I'm really pissed off...

Thanks for being more awesome and soft-stepping than me =P

[MehStrongBadMeh]

8.0 was never mandatory, many continue to use 7.4. 8.1 will be more mandatory in a sense because it will be 1.2 compatible.

[Gavjenks]

That's why I said, "in the future," MSBM.

Quote from the wiki, "Use of these mods will soon be required to access many of the features of The Voxel Box." Also, conversations I have had about such plans with a handful of people.

1.2 isn't an issue, because I can just uncheck things down the list that I don't care about and then install zombe, until it functions (if necessary, and if there isn't something cooler I'd rather have). The problem arises when we begin to do things like adding extra blocks to the game, where if you don't have the modpack, it will crash your client... that's when we all need to be on board.

[MehStrongBadMeh]

We have the missing features covered for the next ModPack update. That includes a flymod that is better than Zombe's and a time mod that is... well... a time mod (there is not really much else to add there). Also, currently planned methods for implementing extra blocks would not crash clients that are not using the ModPack (they just see the extra blocks incorrectly).